Nathan King: This is the wholehearted way podcast brought to you by the Wellspring Group. I'm Nathan King, a facilitator of Wellspring programs. Today's conversation is with Matt Armbruster. Matt went through a group experience, the Battle for the Heart, which consists of a retreat and small group program that taught him how to really listen to people, how to respond in a way that honors someone when they share something difficult. It wasn't designed for work, but what he learned was so powerful he couldn't help but bring it into how he led his team.
And what he discovered is that most workplaces are a desert when it comes to people feeling heard and seen. We spend most of our waking hours at work and somehow we've decided that emotion and authenticity don't belong there, no wonder it feels like a dry and dusty place. Matt pushed into this desert anyway and his results were remarkable: he had zero turnover during COVID while the rest of the company was losing people, and leadership noticed. And so they ended up creating an entirely new role for him around employee engagement and leadership development.
In this conversation we get into what he actually did, why it was hard, and what it opened up for him and for the people around him. One note, this episode was recorded as a live conversation, so towards the end you'll hear a few audience questions. I hope you enjoy this podcast with Matt Armbruster.
So Matt, if we could start with... I imagine that you were in the workforce for quite a long time before you ever went through the Battle for the Heart. And that allowed you to figure out what worked for you at work, how to be effective, and how to navigate a separation so to speak or some level of integration of your spiritual life and your work life. But I have to imagine that there was a time when you were experiencing a lot of growth and renewal through the Battle for the Heart process and that you're sitting there at work and you're starting to wonder, how do I bring some of this in here? If we could get in a time machine and go back to those early experiences. What was going through your mind? What were you thinking about Wellspring and what you were getting out of that and what was going on at work?
Matt Armbruster: Yeah. Well, I wish it were as incredibly intentional as that sounds. Um, I think the way it started for me was rather than me thinking, I'm going to bring Wellspring in, here's how I should do it or how can I do it. I noticed myself responding to the human beings in my team and that I was working with in a way that kind of came from the Wellspring practice and just the intense, you know, you're in a group, you're in a couple different groups and it's a long period of time you're together that you're responding to each other. And what I found was even something as simple as the three-point response... um, you know, I'd like to think that I was active listening before but I think the authentic kind of responding to people... um, once I learned about it through Wellspring and I was simply responding that way to people, because it's hard to spend a lot of time with people at work without learning something if you're engaging them. And this is my team, I was a manager of about 45 people and, you know, I was leading leaders and interacting with the whole team.
And, um, I just found when people were sharing something difficult and I responded in a way that I think honored them and valued them in a superior way to what I was doing before, I think it changed the relationships, which changed what was being shared, which in addition to just the humanness and honoring God's creation in the moment, also led me to understand them better, which helped me lead them better. Um, and help them feel heard and led. And I think the word heard, um, I know that in Wellspring we talk about feeling heard and feeling seen and what I found was... um, to me it's two sides of the same coin. On the one hand, I'm thankful and grateful that when those people received the response that they needed at the time. That's the good side of the coin. The distressing side of the coin is that they are not experiencing that otherwise. And so I felt like it was there's a desert out there of people feeling engaged and heard and seen, and when they experience it, I think that is what started to change things. Right. If that makes sense.
Nathan King: Yeah. It does definitely make sense and I've spent a lot of time in corporate America myself and I can I like the desert image because that when it comes to heart connection that feels very appropriate for most environments. How did people... and there aren't many people given three-point responses in corporate America either. How did people on your team respond? Like what was it like for them to hear you cover them like that?
Matt Armbruster: I would say the responses were emotional. Um, and thankful. Um, emotional to the point where I knew I actually thought I should be careful. You know, where is the line? Um, I'm not a counselor, we're at work, I'm in a secular environment. And, um, you know, it's some of the responses were to the point where, whoa, what did I what door did I open? Uh, what you know, what did I unleash? Um, and so some of the responses were emotional. Some of them... I would say not earlier on, but a little later, I'd say more recently with my with a change in roles from then was... um, I mean the thing that comes to mind when you say that is I was meeting with a employee at work who had gone through something very, very difficult at work from a colleague. And just in hearing this person tell their story and tell me what was going on and see what we could do about it... um, they shared that they had a, as a young as a child they had been harmed. Um, and that that influenced how they reacted to their to their colleague. And I don't know why... I really don't know why, but I ended up just saying, uh, to that person, it wasn't your fault. And they stopped, they could not talk for a while, and they eventually said that no one had ever said that to them. Wow. This is an adult working in a laboratory, you know, on with their life and and no one had ever sat with them and told them something they definitely needed to hear.
Nathan King: Yeah. That raised the hair on my arms to hear you hear you share that. Yeah. It's hard not to get emotional telling that story. Absolutely. And that I mean you your own experience of emotion right there makes me think like one of the reasons that many people don't want to touch emotion at work is because it's so messy and that experience of what have I unleashed. I don't know how to control or what to do, how to respond to this. But yet you took a different approach, you plowed ahead. You you went ahead. And I'm wondering what desire did you sense there underlying that that gave you the courage to keep going?
Matt Armbruster: Well, so, you know, one of my deep desires is impact, for sure. Um, and you know, as time went on, and, you know, you say pressing forward, and over time, and I wouldn't begin to say I know all the factors involved, there are a lot of different factors, anybody who works knows you can't pin it on one thing, but what happened is during COVID like a lot of companies, we had a spike in turnover. Um, and you know versus prior. And so in my team, um, you know, we got some new leadership in at the company and they were looking at turnover and I got a question because I, while we had spiked across the company, I had had zero turnover. Um, and you know just zero. And, uh, I ended up in a lot of conversations and I had to decide whether to push forward to your point and push forward for me meant change my job entirely. I had been with the company 15 years at that point, uh in a couple of different capacities but, you know, leading the team I mentioned before, and they said we would like to create a role around employee engagement and development and they asked if I'd be willing to fill the role. So I did. Uh, so pushing forward meant I just completely jumped into a different job.
Wow. And and with that I got a lot of opportunity. Um, I got the opportunity to interact. We probably have 350 leaders at our company of all different levels. And I got a chance to interact with many of them. And, you know, even going through there's, you know, different iterations, a chance to bring different experiences to those leaders, you know, with kind of I created groups, we can talk about that if you want, and then even to the point where I'm now, we have a leadership academy, we have a PhD leadership professor, and, um, she decided to have other people at the company be kind of additional faculty for a second level leadership curriculum. And I'm doing a course on, not a course, I'm doing a session on employee engagement. And so I am three times a year getting leaders in there and I'm basically teaching them and encouraging them in interacting with their teams and one-on-ones to basically do something close to the one to three words. Like, you know, I'm and I am telling them, hey, if you have an employee share something difficult with you, if you're if you want to stick around at the end of this presentation, we can talk about how one way that you can use to really make sure that your person who's going through a difficult time feels heard. And everybody sticks around. Um, because everybody has somebody reporting to them that has gone through a difficult time or they know they will because it's the experience that we all know. So basically I teach the three-point response to whatever leader is willing to listen. So.
Nathan King: That's really incredible. Yeah. And to drill into the, you mentioned creating small groups, that definitely makes my ears perk up in a secular environment, what that must look like. But if we could back up for a second. It sounds like what you were saying was you're a manager of 40ish people, there was high turnover but not in your area, there was no turnover. That's what got the attention of other of more broadly executive leadership. Yeah. And I imagine there were some questions about what are you doing Matt? How do we how do we import this? But what you're doing is not um conventional. So how was that received when you explained what you were doing?
Matt Armbruster: Well I mean it wasn't, I mean this I think this is a very important thing but it wasn't just this thing. Um, you know, of course we were, you know, it was I'd say across the company it's desired but not 100% consistent that folks are getting good interaction with their leaders but in my area it was not um negotiable. Um, you know, with the leaders that I was developing who reported to me and and me with my leaders as I was trying to role model best I could, which is far from perfect. Um, so we were engaging our people on a regular and intentional basis, um, and we were, you know, working with them on their careers and and they doing it in appropriate way and building trust. I think the difference is that engaging people in this way makes all of the rest of it work better. It makes it possible. Um, it's hard to know where someone wants to go with their career or what they really like or don't like if you're just asking questions off a sheet.
Um, you know, one of the things that we try to tell, I try to talk to leaders about is, you know, the kind of heart check we just did, like a secular version of that, I say if you will give, this is kind of how I've said this at work a dozen times in the last two weeks, if you're willing to devote two minutes of every one-on-one, I really believe that over a course of time you're going to drastically and exponentially increase the possibility for connection between you and your person. That's kind of that's kind of what I say to the leaders. Because I really do believe if you do the secular version of a heart check, every one-on-one with your person, over time, and you know, you're going to get lots of opportunity. And then and then we talk about how to how to engage them when that happens. So and how to deal with some of the difficult things. The other thing is in my current role in the HR world, which is only a few years, um, you know, in the making here, is I get the chance to sit with employees but also their leaders. Um, if sometimes it's one-on-one, but sometimes the leader is there, or the junior leader there with a senior leader. And so I am engaging the person while someone else is watching and listening. And so I get a chance to show that leader one way that they could consider engaging their people. So.
Nathan King: Did I answer your question Nathan? I don't know. Absolutely. What what kind of feedback have you gotten from people observing you engage somebody?
Matt Armbruster: Um. I'd say a lot of folks aren't sure that they can do it. Hm. Um, a lot of folks aren't sure that um, I don't know if it's because I work in a building full of scientists. I shouldn't say that. You know my background is in science so I feel like I can say it, but um, so, but a lot of folks aren't sure that they have the capacity. And then that's when it's a good opportunity to talk about how it can kind of be simple. you know, it can kind of be simple. Um, um, you know, I think in the Wellspring experience, you have so much time and, um, you get a lot of background on your group members, and there's a lot of intensity, um, that brings a lot of great connection. And at work it's a different type of thing. So you almost have to simplify something like a three-point response. Um, you know, to the point where sometimes, um, you're just, well, how can I say it, you really got to be careful about offering something even more so maybe than in a Wellspring group. Um, it's it can be it can be tough. So, yeah, that's the number one response is people aren't sure that they can do it, but they do say they want to.
Nathan King: Right. Which is really interesting. What what do you think that's saying about desire in them? Have you thought through what that might be?
Matt Armbruster: I haven't. What do you think?
Nathan King: Well I'm I would assume that underneath that is the desire to have connection, the desire to help, and not be so stuck when someone talks about how they're having a a bad day or even cries in front of you, which just people run for the woods when they when they see tears if they're extremely analytical. They just don't know what to do.
Matt Armbruster: I think desire, you just used the word desire. I think you reminded me of an experience. So one thing I've seen my pastor do in in a group experiences is when two people are engaged, he will sometimes ask someone else what it felt like to watch that. And I think that's part of what brings up the desire. And so I even, I had a leadership, I had a a leadership class or an experience with a certain division and I asked them to ruminate on certain words that had to do with connection and feeling seen, heard, um, respected. I used all those words. And I had these, this leader, I said anybody, does this, do they rem- have a memory of feeling heard and respected by a leader? And so someone told a story on this side of the room, so I stole from my pastor and I asked somebody on the other side of the room, hey, and this is at work, I'm doing it with these, and I said what did it feel like to to listen to that? And that person over there got emotional saying I I want to have that kind of connection. I want my people to feel led by me in that way. So I think one of the benefits here of doing some of this stuff is at work is you will tap into some of those things that people weren't sure. People don't get a lot of opportunity, if any, to feel that tug unless they're watching a movie like we all do at the beginning of the Wellspring stuff. They don't. So when they're in a room with two real people and they see something real happen, the desire you spoke of I think is sparked, big time.
Nathan King: That's really cool. You you mentioned having starting small groups. And how many people were involved in the end?
Matt Armbruster: Uh, well at the, well, at the beginning, how many were involved? At the begin- well, at the beginning, you know, I I my boss when I came into the people role, he said, you know, and this would be natural I think a lot of people would do this, he said I want to talk you to talk to all the leaders. He said I had a goal on my job plan. By this time talk to 90% of our leaders. So for us that's hundreds, right? So I talked to all these leaders. And one of the threads that was very consistent was a desire for connection. Connection across divisions, across departments, and for different reasons. Best practices, scientific best practices, other things, but also peer support. As people move up in leadership, they often get more lonely. Right? They have a different relationship with the people that maybe were their peers before. They can't share everything with their boss. And that's one role I try to take on our company where possible is hey I'm a I'm someone you can talk to, there's no weight of authority between us. And so we had desire for connection.
So I went to my boss and I said, hey, could we try a pilot, three months, we'll call them connection groups. So peer leadership groups, three or four people at this level, three or four people, you know, all at the same level. And um, at first I got a no. I got a no. Um, my boss said, yeah I think that would be okay, but you need to go talk to the president of the company, he's not so sure. Okay, so I went down there and I asked, I talked to him, I said hey I set up the meeting of course, I didn't just barge in and burst into his office on a Tuesday, I'd only do that on Thursdays. So I think, um, I went down there and I said I'd, you know, have this, I told him about the idea, I said I know that my boss talked to you about it and you have some concerns. Can you share? And his concern was that we have a lot of great leaders, a lot of great people, he said, but what if you get a bad apple in the mix? That could be messy. I said yes. That could happen. I said, yes, that's a risk. I said, but your risk is greater now, with a lack of connection, than it is for something that might not ever happen. And he's like, okay. He bought it, it wasn't that quick, but he bought it. And uh, so I put out the call to 300, probably at the time 300 leaders, and I was hoping to get two or three four-person groups to try it out for three months. And I had 115 people reply right away that they wanted to do it. And I was blown away. I was like, wow they they weren't lying to me. They did want it.
And so we did that. And so we've had anywhere from 80 to 120. I moved it up to six-month sessions now. We do six-month sessions, these are randomly created groups, I just found a free website where I can put names in and it randomly creates groups. As long as they're not in the same department. I do a launch session every time. And that's another time when someone gets into these groups every six months they hear from me about engaging the people in their group. I am trying to get them to tell their story, and when I say story I talk to them about transparency and authenticity being like rocket fuel for groups, for these groups. And um, and I talk to them about this idea, you could start every every uh meeting by sharing this when you get together. And I model it. And I model it with how I'm feeling that day like all of you did, you know, when Laura broke us up. I pick that day. So those people might hear about like, you know, if there's a struggle with my son. Right? If there's a joy with something else. And I usually do a personal and a work. Um, to show them that both are okay. So. Yeah, that's what happened with connection groups and they're still going, that's probably it's been two and a half years.
Nathan King: Wow. And they've grown.
Matt Armbruster: Yeah, they've grown, I mean some people come in and out of groups, some people are like, they stick in the same group, some people want to get into new groups to meet more people. Some people get too busy and they drop out and come back later. So.
Nathan King: And you said a minute ago I think if I heard this right, transparency is rocket fuel?
Matt Armbruster: I don't know what the, authenticity and transparency are like rocket fuel for the group experience. It's like it changes everything. Just changes everything. Um. And telling the story is often a good way to to make that happen.
Nathan King: What do you say to those who are interested but reluctant to bring some of these approaches into the workplace?
Matt Armbruster: Well everyone's company is different, I can only speak from my experience, but for me, every proposal I've ever been successful in had to be had to include, had to include a, you know, a risk scenario, you know? Like what's the risk of doing this or what's the risk of not doing this versus where we are now and and of course the reward, but um, you know, I would say um, can you repeat your question?
Nathan King: Well for someone who's interested but maybe they're holding back and and you know what would you say to them just if you were to counsel so you're saying one include some snapshot of what could go wrong.
Matt Armbruster: I should go backwards, I think you said what would you say to them if they're apprehensive, I would say consider your desires in the workplace. And your deep desires and how those deep desires um might be brought to the workplace. Um, and so because if you're not personally motivated, um, it would be, it would be difficult to do this kind of thing. Um, because it's not magic. I think we've all been in situations where the chemistry in a group isn't always great. Um, and and in a chemistry between a leader and an employee perhaps they didn't have a great relationship before or that's it was middling, fair to middling, I don't know. And so they have to they have to stick it out. They're not going to get two hours of this every week with their people. They're not. Like I could not convince, you would not convince in a secular company that you should spend an hour connecting on an emotional level in your one-on-one with your employee and not talking about whatever needs to be done. You know, yeah whatever, yeah. And so that can take longer to build something that they are seeing results from. Um, and so I would say if you're not personally motivated to guide people through a longer continuum to get success, then then that might be hard to get started. So I'd say it would start in understanding why do you want to bring it to work? What difference can it make? Um, that would be the place to start.
Nathan King: Great. Thank you Matt. For those of you who are watching, if you have a question that hasn't been answered, uh feel free to unmute yourself and uh and to ask Matt. What might be on your mind.
Tom Brinks: Matt I have a question for you. Uh Tom Brinks. Hi Tom. Thinking about you know I've been in business for many many years and it is just very refreshing and exciting to my heart to hear being able to make an impact. Um. How did you keep uh covering or the three point response you know as you focused on the skills uh how did you have struggles with people who I mean one of the things that that Wellspring does is it provides a foundational heart loving God and loving others and that the skills are something to kind of express that concern for others. And I mean did you just focus on the skills or the skills and heart-level connection?
Matt Armbruster: So I, yeah you're that's a very good point Tom. I'm not taking time with these leaders to go through a process of of uncovering where their heart is and and why it's there. I would say I there is more of a heavy focus on there's more of focus on the skill, but something I find myself saying at work a lot is hey this is the right thing for this human being, it's also the right thing for the business. Um, and so, and I want to live, I personally want to live where those two things overlap as much as possible. Um, because that's where I'm going to get um I'm going to get as much support from my leaders and I'm going to get, you know, more people into it. So I'd say, you know, I'm talking about, you know, it's easy to tie this stuff into active listening. And it's almost like a bump up level of active listening. You know, most of the people in the business world, depending on what your industry is, you've heard about active listening, you might have had a training on active listening, especially if you're in leadership. And so if you say this is kind of like a better, a add-on skill for for active listening, and so I'm, you know, and I'd say I concentrate on the skill Tom because to someone I think Nathan's point earlier is people it's going to happen, they're going something's going to be difficult, it's going to be shared with this leader and they feel stuck on how to respond. And so this is a skill on how to respond. So I am more focused on the skill. I would say the people who come back and tell me about an experience they've had and they tell me what that was like, I then get to dig in a little bit about the heart but again I have to say I it's not going to be as deep as it is in a in a Battle meeting.
Nathan King: Great question Tom. Jerry asked in the chat what the frequency and duration of group times are.
Matt Armbruster: For that uh program? For the connection group program? It is one hour, a month, for six months. Okay. That's it. Um, it's really hard to get I mean it's like for these leaders, um, they're very, very, their schedules are very busy, they're on client calls, they're on their one And so um, it's easy for them to find an hour, it's tougher for four of them to find the same hour, right? As you can imagine. And so I start with an hour. Now what I find is the really good groups, they do other stuff sometimes. The really good groups, they want to get in the mix for the next six month session, but they actually stay with that group for like a quarterly get-together. And I give almost no rules. I mean, basically that's one of the points I make in the kickoff session. Like the nuts and bolts, here they are, and there aren't many. There just aren't many. I'm like I I tell them I don't care where you meet, I don't care when you meet, I don't care what you talk about. Um, we've got people that'll meet in the building in a conference room, and we got people that'll go down the street to the restaurant after work. Just whatever works for them. So. Yeah. It's not a lot Jerry, it's it's not a lot.
Nathan King: And Laura asked in the chat, what does a secular heart check look like? Is it the same two to three feeling words?
Matt Armbruster: Uh highlight and challenge. Uh I would say the feat highlight and challenge is the most typical thing I start people with. Highlight and a challenge. Because that can look an awful lot like one to three words. Um. And um I actually have done the words a little bit with people, I get one thing is I run a report every three or four months on who's been promoted into leadership at our company. And I get some time with them. And I introduce them to this at that time also. Um, I am I'm showing them some I'm trying to make sure they're aware of some opportunities at the company for leaders to develop, I'm making sure they're aware of some resources available on our internet, on our sharepoint, I'm making sure they're aware I interact with them and tell them I am a resource to you, you're not alone, I said you you don't have to do this alone. Uh and I'm telling them about this. And so I'm doing highlight and challenge, I call that like 101, and I say one to three words is like 301 or 401. And I said at work here that might be very difficult I tell them because those words can tend to be emotion words. I said you have to feel it out with your person, but I always recommend starting with highlight and challenge. Cause no one will react weirdly to that. I mean they won't think I'm trying to put one over on them like a counselor or some pastor or something.
Nathan King: Yeah.
Bob: Matt, I have a question.
Matt Armbruster: Yeah go ahead.
Bob: Do you have any boundaries that you teach for leaders getting involved with employees and that you don't cross emotional boundaries. Because exposing people who haven't gone through training at Wellspring, especially the secular world, um I have a friend who's gone through battle and got fired by HR for loving people in his under his care too well.
Matt Armbruster: Yeah. I'd say that is I have to worry about boundaries Bob for myself, because I'm in an HR role, and often when I I am talking with someone it might be a very difficult time for them. They may be seeking some sort of protected leave because of an issue with their family or themselves or something happened to them at work or what have you. And so I have to watch it myself. And I'd say the way I think about it, I don't say it, is you know if you've been to a battle event and someone's asking um what would it bring you, what does that bring you, what does that bring you, what does that bring you, if you guys have witnessed that interaction, you gotta pull back from the the subsequent what would that bring you. I mean figuratively the what would that bring you, you you have to almost, what I talk to people about is you you can cover, I don't use the word cover, right? I say you can respond to them in this way um but I you gotta be careful with follow-up questions. You want to give space and time um and safety. Um so I would say what I tell them is you want to say hey you know you want to give them some kind of response that shows them they were heard and seen and and not rejected. Um and you want to have a response, your own response. But give it space there. Um. Yeah.
That that's good. Because you know one of the time like I'd say um sorry I just having a memory this was just about a month ago I got called over to another building um by a leader who someone was in an emotional crisis. Right. So they had said some words to to their leader that made the leader concerned for their safety. Um. And so I went to the room, and the leader was with me, and the employee was there, and one of the things that we did was we said hey if you need some time in this office, this room, you have it. Um. We can be here, we can not be here, you can use that phone. That person thank the Lord had a counselor. Uh that's great when that's the case. Um and they got to connect. So when things you know I was able to respond in the way that we've been talking about, um, but then also find ways to give that per- person space and safety and I'm kind of backing away from the real emotion I'd say the deeper emotion. It's it's tough Bob because you you want to.
Bob: Right. Right. That don't get sucked back, I'm I'm so encouraged to hear you have that on your radar and you're actively protecting your own heart from getting too far in.
Matt Armbruster: It's tough for me. I will be in a room also with a you know I I mean I I'm talking with men, with women, um and so I I don't want to come across in any way that would be inappropriate. That I have a fear of someone thinking I'm being inappropriate, that would be awful, I don't want that anyway, but um yeah it's harder Bob to talk to other people about it. I would say that's more situational.
Bob: Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan King: Great question Bob. Thank you for that. Well, what we'd like to do now is to go back into breakout groups for five minutes. Just to debrief in a small group format about what we took away today. But before we do Matt this was really impactful to hear your story and we appreciate you taking the time and speaking so candidly with us about what your experience has been like. And I feel like I've learned a lot in listening to you and find myself more motivated to engage others and to be thoughtful and intentional about it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one with that takeaway. So if Laura can set us up for to go to small groups.
