Intro:
Welcome to the Wholehearted Way podcast, brought to you by the Wellspring Group. I'm Nathan King, a longtime volunteer and facilitator with Wellspring. Today I'm joined by Mandy Wellington, Wellspring's operations manager, and Laura Arnold, Wellspring's director of research and development. Our topic for the conversation is anger.
After we finished recording, we realized that anger is a complex and difficult topic, so we wanted to provide a little more definition to what we mean by it before you listen to the conversation. Anger can mean rage, contempt, or settled wrath. The Bible warns us about each. James tells us human anger does not produce the righteousness God desires. Paul tells us to be angry and do not sin. Jesus turned over tables in the temple.
The way we talk about anger here is as a signal. The first flare that says something we care about is at stake.
As I mention in the episode, it is like a check engine light, not a green light. Think of it like An invitation to look underneath, and to bring what we find to God and trusted people. We think there is more to cover and unpack about this topic, so consider this the first part of a series on anger. We hope you enjoy!
Nathan King (00:01.9)
Welcome to the Whole Hearted Way podcast brought to you by the Wellspring Group. Today we have a special episode with Mandy Wellington, who's the operations manager at the Wellspring Group, and Laura Arnold, who is the director of research and development at the Wellspring Group. And I am a longtime volunteer and facilitator with Wellspring to get today. We have gathered the three of us to just have an off the cuff conversation. We don't have any planned agenda.
But what we thought we would do is spend a few minutes talking about an emotion that occurs in each of our lives on a pretty routine basis. And we all have a complicated relationship with it. So today we're to be talking about the emotion of anger and how that has value and how it has risks. So Mandy and Laura, welcome to the Horryway podcast. It's an honor and privilege to be with you today.
Mandi (00:56.449)
Thank you, Nathan.
Laura (00:56.486)
Thank so much, Nathan.
Nathan King (00:59.554)
First, before we jump in, I'd like to read a description of what anger is from a book called The Voice of the Heart. This is a book that was written, I don't know, 15 years ago by a psychologist whose name is Chip Dodd. He actually lives here in Middle Tennessee. I'm in Nashville, so that's nearby. I've never met him, but that is kind of.
He sets the table. He walks through in his book. He advocates for the idea that there are you could reduce the entire universe of emotions down to eight specific feelings and all of they're so complex and nuanced that we have thousands of words that describe feelings. But really, they boil down. We can distill them down to eight distinct ones. So let me read you what he says about anger. And I'm curious to get your reactions to it. In truth.
Anger is possibly the most important feeling we experience as emotional and spiritual beings because it is the first step to authentic living. It shows our yearning and hunger for life. Anger helps us pursue full life by exposing the substance, desires, and commitments of our hearts. Anger works to enhance relationships by building bridges of intimacy with others. You know who you're in relationship with?
their desires, their transparency and authenticity. Angry people can be known because of their unwillingness to hide. In exposing the heart's substance, anger helps us in two ways. One, it shows the presence of passion, and two, it indicates the experience of other feelings.
Nathan King (02:45.89)
So that's the end of the quote, but I'm just gonna repeat that last bit. What the benefits or the value of anger is to us. It shows the presence of passion and it indicates the experience of other feelings.
Mandi (02:46.199)
There's a lot there.
Nathan King (02:59.48)
How do you all react to that?
Mandi (03:03.147)
about to ask that of you, Nathan. How do you perceive that it's an indicator of other emotions, other things going on?
Nathan King (03:11.692)
I would say, yeah, yeah, I would say first, what I like about this is I've long recognized myself as someone who experiences anger pretty easily. And for most of my life, I considered the experience of anger to be wrong. Like I should never experience anger. And so that left me in this weird place. Like I'm experiencing anger, but it's wrong. So I need to get rid of my anger. need to, and for me it was, I just need to like,
silence the anger. And maybe that was sort of like this Buddhist monk thing of like, just going to feel nothing. I'm going to be have this Zen experience. But but what I have realized and you know, reading this reminds me of it is that when I experience anger, if I'm honest with the anger, it exposes other things like things that I want or other feelings that I'm having, like maybe I'm feeling angry about a certain situation.
A meeting, I led a meeting at work and it didn't go well. And I'm angry about that. The anger then harvests or not harvests. It points to my shame that I didn't do my best. And then it also surfaces the desire that I want to be the type of leader who runs a meeting that is productive and efficient and has good conversation. And if I'm not experiencing my anger, I don't know that I get in touch with that.
Mandi (04:40.63)
you
Nathan King (04:40.76)
So I find it a very articulate and helpful statement that helps me think about my anger as a constructive feeling.
Mandi (04:48.774)
Mm-hmm. I hear you giving yourself permission to feel this this book or whatever this you know has given you permission to feel the anger and to explore What other things are behind it? But if you disappear the anger you say I'm not allowed to feel this acknowledge this then essentially you're disappearing all that's behind it as well
Nathan King (05:13.858)
Yeah, that's right. You're becoming numb or in my case, I'm becoming numb if I disappear the anger, if I silence the anger or turn away from the anger.
Mandi (05:27.67)
framework and one I haven't considered. Laura, is that connecting with you in any particular way?
Laura (05:35.239)
For sure, growing up, I can think of multiple times when I felt like, this is not acceptable to be angry. so it is an emotion that I have trouble recognizing and not one that I'm inclined to think, oh, this happened, I'm angry. I go to any other fear.
maybe shame, but I don't readily see anger in myself. And so I'm intrigued by this notion that it is almost this doorway into a deeper understanding of my heart and I want to believe that's true and I feel myself like my jaw clenching as Nathan you read that passage like, no.
Mandi (06:31.126)
Ha
Nathan King (06:34.678)
So say more about no.
Laura (06:39.756)
Anger feels messy. It feels dangerous, reckless, mysterious. And to consider that this emotion is healthy, helpful, good.
It feels like that can't be.
Nathan King (07:04.213)
Yeah. Where does that what makes us because I think that I resonate with that. That makes me think of maybe my perception of anger historically. What what gives it that reputation?
Mandi (07:09.782)
me too.
Mandi (07:22.966)
have a thought. mean, the thing that jumps to my mind, Laura, and I want to come back to you to see.
What your answer is to that. It feels so out of control. To me, anger feels not just messy, but volatile and out of control. And I think that there have been ways that anger has been used to manipulate, to control. There have been very damaging and destructive uses of anger. And so I think...
It just feels safer to pitch the whole category.
Nathan King (07:59.874)
Yeah, yeah. Laura, what do you think?
Laura (08:04.026)
For me, it is one of the strongest emotions I feel. And so when I hit that sort of energy or sometimes I express my passion as like the force of a thousand waterfalls, when I touch anger, it taps into some of that energy that...
Nathan King (08:10.606)
Mmm.
Laura (08:29.36)
could potentially be unrestrained, but for sure has this driving force that I don't fill with, I don't know, like peace or maybe not necessarily happiness. And so that's like, I just got on this speedway and I shy away from that volume of passion and energy. don't really know what to do with it.
Mandi (08:59.574)
Laura, am really like immediately when you said the speedway and made me think of like race car drivers. You do not go from driving this little, I mean, no offense to anybody that has a Honda, but like this little patsy car. Do driving a race car without learning how to harness and manage that kind of power. And yet.
What are we doing when we say this is a category that we can't consider? We're not training ourselves, equipping ourselves to be able to navigate when we hit that kind of energy. And I don't know what resources are even out there that help us learn to become equipped because I think we've so just said this whole category is wrong.
Nathan King (09:47.02)
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. You know, as I was listening to you talk, Laura, and I like this this automobile reference reminds me something I heard a counselor say once, which is that anger functions like a check engine light. It can be the easiest emotion to access because it just flares up, but it points to other things. So if you stop it, I'm angry and you don't take that further to what else am I? Then it doesn't serve the main
benefit that as if you you go take it deeper and maybe that's maybe that's the the the the exit ramp on this freeway. So if I get to the point where I'm experiencing anger, it's time to exit and understand what else is going on. And if I keep going, maybe things can get out of control. So I think we've all experienced where we've lost control because we were angry. And I think I'm trying to think about it in adult settings.
that have consequences like in a professional setting, being in a meeting with other people. And I get angry about something that's in a meeting. And
I express anger and it just bubbles out and it's spraying like some chemical that stains people all over the place. That's that's out of control. It's uncontained. Now I'm in the territory of rage. Rage is never good. There's no benefit to anybody of Ray. It's only destructive.
But if I take that anger, I'm like, why am I angry in this meeting? Well, I see this person has just passively aggressively responded to this other person. Well, that can point me to, well, that's justice. Like that's not just where I need to protect. Those are good things. So how can I protect in a constructive way or how can I call out that somebody hasn't responded in a, in a respectful way? That's anger doing pointing me to the work that needs to be done.
Mandi (11:52.128)
Mm-hmm.
Laura (11:53.275)
I like that you use the sort of check engine and potentially an off-ramp to push pause and ask myself, what is this pointing to? Like what's underneath the surface? The other thing that came to mind as you were talking, Nathan, is the safety found in community. And so I have been in situations where my friends have
either helped me identify this is what you're feeling. I'm wondering what that's saying about this situation or I'm feeling angry for you and inviting me to feel some of that in the safety of their holding it when it is an unfamiliar, scary feeling to me. And that beauty of community
is such a gift.
Nathan King (12:53.868)
Yeah, so you're saying that a friend anger moves your friend to fight for you to support you. Which is a benefit.
Mandi (13:02.262)
Laura, I've experienced you do that for me. I mean, I've experienced moments where I'm disrupted by anger and I might feel clouded in that moment, but your capacity to feel angry for me helps give me some like grounding there. Or, and or, I've also experienced me not being able to have anger for myself.
Laura (13:02.566)
safety.
Mandi (13:27.124)
and you are experiencing anger on my behalf and then I get in touch with, there's something more going on. So I just want to echo what you're saying and just speak to the value I've experienced even from you on this topic.
Nathan King (13:44.332)
That's so valuable, to know that you've got times when maybe something was happening and Laura stepped in to help and provide that support. Because this idea of community, we never can all manage our emotions perfectly. Maybe Laura mentioned growing up, she learned that anger was dangerous. So as an adult, she falls back on that old belief.
And, and, you know, maybe, maybe you fall back on that belief in some way, or we all, I mean, it really relates. I relate to it quite a bit. What chip died, the guy who talked about anger as valuable goes on to say is that when we don't allow anger, we result in experiencing, depression or pride. So that's, that's impaired. He even claims that that's impaired anger.
Mandi (14:38.624)
You
Nathan King (14:43.382)
It's not anger that we're allowing to express fully that brings us to these other emotions and desires that we need to act on.
Mandi (14:53.472)
Can you expand on the pride connection? I can readily understand the depression connection, but the pride one I'm not making.
Nathan King (15:02.966)
Yeah, he he makes the assertion that pride causes us to deny the vulnerability that's revealed in anger. So vulnerability, big, big, big category word, but less, less, less unpack that. So vulnerability is when I'm willing to take a risk by showing my imperfection, by expressing my my needs, my neediness.
And if, if I am shutting off my anger, I'm in some ways denying my own vulnerability. So it's kind of like that Simon and Garfunkel song. I am a rock from the sixties. I'm an Island. I don't need anybody else. I'm just, I'm good on my own.
Mandi (15:42.954)
Yeah.
Mandi (15:53.398)
Yes. Well, that took me back to my childhood. Yes, it does. It does very much. I got distracted by the song because I like that song. But I really do connect. It goes back to the messy word, Laura, that you used because anger can be messy and we don't want to we've conditioned ourselves so much to put ourselves I think especially as people in the church. think that we I mean, we've talked about this a couple of times on the podcast, just that it's
Nathan King (15:55.427)
Does that help?
Mandi (16:23.142)
easy to feel like you're supposed to be put together all buttoned up and rather than where there's allowed to be this messiness. so yeah, behind that is pride. You know, I'm unwilling. I have to put myself, make myself look a particular way, even if that's untrue.
Nathan King (16:36.46)
Yeah. Yeah, let's stay with the church thing for a second. So let's say I show up at a small group at a church. Some people I'm reading the Bible with or just meet with regularly over coffee. It could be a prayer meeting or something like that. And someone says, how are you feeling today?
If I'm in that group with you guys based on what you've experienced in your life and I say, you know, I'm feeling kind of angry today. What's your response? What's your instinct?
Mandi (17:11.318)
Truly? I mean, at this point, have a more comfortable relationship with anger. So I think I'd be like, that makes me curious. Tell me what's going on, you know?
Nathan King (17:21.614)
Cool. Bet you, Laura.
Laura (17:24.838)
I could feel myself pulling away and knowing rationally to meet you there and to identify like, say your vulnerability, invite my vulnerability, identify, hey, I've been angry before. I actually didn't know I was an angry person until I had children. So that was eye-opening. But you asked like, what would my...
Nathan King (17:47.415)
Yeah
Mandi (17:48.182)
No.
Laura (17:54.277)
just my immediate reaction. B, I just want to run the other way. okay, you feel angry I'm out, even though rationally I know that's not the right thing. Or the most helpful thing to, I mean, to be present and kind to you.
Mandi (18:14.314)
I don't want to get off the anger discussion, but I do want to point, there's something that I think is so beautiful in this, Laura, that I think is so true in the church, and I think we miss it a lot. I've experienced that most people want to show up well in that moment, and I hear that even as you're speaking. You want to be able to show up well in that moment, but you don't really know what to do, and you're so uncomfortable, and so emotively you want to flee. And so guess one of my biggest passions is
for people to be equipped to engage in some of these conversations because I think people are so hungry to be met there. And then I think the other half of the equation, people are so long to actually come through in that moment. And I just, really, I know that's a personal thing for me that we are become equipped to be able to stay in that moment and to be
Nathan King (19:05.506)
like the word that you said, is curious. You heard, you know, the example is I say, I'm feeling angry today and you got curious about what that is. Curiosity helps us overcome our own fears of what this anger could be and helps us to sit with it. I would say in my experience, it's not a cut and dry situation. depends on the group, but...
Many times when I've been in Christian settings, I've tried this. I've tried using the word anger as if everyone agrees that it's an okay word. And what I would say, if I had to bet money on what the response would be, if I'm in a small group with Christians and I say I'm feeling angry, I bet the response would be, all right, well, here's what you need to try. Here's a Bible verse that you could read. Here's an action you could take that could solve your problem.
but it's, and I think that's coming from the place that Laura said she was, she was, she wants to show up well, but she's uncomfortable. So how do we solve this? We get out of the messiness of anger and we clean it up. We put some control over it, but that's in that's if I, know, going back to what we were saying earlier, anger points to other things that doesn't necessarily help me. Like what is that anger pointing to? Yeah. Say the Mandy.
Laura (20:09.584)
Mm-hmm.
Mandi (20:14.986)
Right? Mm-hmm.
Mandi (20:25.182)
It's actually making it. Yeah, no, I'm saying it's actually makes it about the other person, which is really like hard to acknowledge. So like if I'm somebody, let's say Nathan, you're you come and you say, I'm feeling angry and I immediately want to make that go away because it's uncomfortable for me. I am now entering this conversation in a very even well intended self centered place.
I am trying to resolve how it's making me feel. I am not becoming aware of what the other person most needs in this moment.
That's a hard pill to swallow, I think.
Nathan King (21:08.768)
It is a very hard pill. It's very sobering to hear you say that. just I hear you say that and say I ask myself how many times have I responded to someone? And who are bringing up things that are messy to me that I want to. I don't want to be in that mess. It's too uncomfortable. So how do I respond in a way that keeps it if not at a distance? I maybe I can help contribute to cleaning it up.
Mandi (21:36.552)
I maybe even go further in terms of, I just keep thinking of Jesus over turning the tables. It's like, like this is now no longer like about, hey, Mandy came to the room angry and there's something behind that that we need to like help, like that will help her. This is now about something entirely different and yet scripture names it as righteous anger. It's like the whole world, the whole room gets squirmy thinking about.
Like what that means that Jesus was fully righteous, that he there was no wrong in what he did and yet he's demonstrate. And so it kind of takes me all the way back to the beginning of the conversation and I like what is the difference between rage and anger like that area and then like the force of thousand waterfalls and you know what is there something
Like is there a quality of anger that gets us to someplace good in that moment? I resonate with justice being a part of that equation, but I don't know if there's more to it than that.
Nathan King (22:50.072)
Well, your example story is perfect of Jesus expressing anger. what do you think was behind, justice seems to be behind that.
in that moment with Jesus, what else could have been behind that?
Mandi (23:17.142)
I have a thought. Laura, do you have a thought? Okay, you look like your wheels are turning over there. don't want to step over you. Well, okay, so this is my mind merging both the previous conversation about the church and this picture of Jesus turning the tables. I'll share that about 10 years ago, I was beginning to talk about a wrong that was done to me.
Laura (23:19.792)
Let's hear it.
Laura (23:23.792)
This is a big time.
Mandi (23:46.502)
And I went to several well-respected people in the church, whom I have a lot of trust in and still have a lot of trust in. But at the time, I went to a number of people and I said, what is righteous anger look like in this situation? That because I thought I'm in church. I'm asking church leadership. What is righteous anger look like in this situation? And almost every single one of them said,
began to address my need to forgive, my need to, right? They were trying to tamp down, right? And I ended up, that was a really, really negative experience. I was trying to genuinely discern what the difference between like a ragey, like unhealthy anger and what was, what, there was a.
right if there was a righteous anger in in this and how not just to give myself permission to be angry, but is there something here and
It led me on this whole journey. We'll skip the whole journey, but what I discovered was I just really linked the sense of value to like how you perceive value is related to this topic. And what I mean by that is like if you have a napkin and you shred it, like no one cares, right? Because it has no value.
But if you have the Mona Lisa and someone shreds the Mona Lisa, there's a reason it's behind, it's in this museum. It's protected, right? Because it has value to it. And we become outraged. And we think that is right, because something, right? But when a human is treated with less value than God has given, has assigned to them, are we allowed to have anger on their behalf?
Mandi (25:47.67)
I don't really know where that exists very.
Nathan King (25:51.938)
So what you're saying is it's yes, people have value. If they're treated without value, anger is definitely justified as a part of addressing that. But your lived experiences that anger is frowned upon.
Mandi (26:08.091)
Yes, my lived experiences at Angeris frowned upon that we tamp it down.
Nathan King (26:10.328)
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great example. And I felt really sad when you shared that because it just feels wrong to me. Your anger is telling you something and, to shut it off blocks you from that. If someone came to you now that you've had the experience you've gone through, you've passed through that valley where you didn't get the right help. If someone came to you and said, Hey, I'm feeling angry about this situation.
Is that right? What do I do with it? What would you tell them?
Mandi (26:45.398)
I mean, I go back to my answer before. I it would help them unpack what's behind the anger because I think it's important to get to like, you angry at yourself? Are you angry at God? There are so many different directions this could go in and is it rightly placed or is it not? so I think there'd be kind even for myself, there was like a teasing out of what was just like,
Nathan King (27:00.334)
Yeah.
Mandi (27:13.98)
unhealthy wanting people wanting or grasping after a certain reaction versus a healthy request for something on my behalf and in those and what was I going to do if I didn't get that is it enough that God is angry on my behalf and actually turned out it was enough so I think if you're gonna ask me where I would want to direct people is honestly
Yes, we can ask for it in our community. I hope that we can give that to each other in a right way, in a healthy way. But ultimately to experience God's anger on your behalf, it does so very much.
Nathan King (27:53.868)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. Laura, earlier you mentioned feeling anger. Like like you made kind of a humorous remark that we are related to that knowing having kids has helped you see your own anger. What do you what do you make of that?
Laura (28:16.294)
Bye.
would say walking into parenthood, having children, it exposed my love for control, for having things a certain way, for...
basically everything to be perfect and right at my own doing. so enter these precious little people who cannot do anything for themselves when they're tiny. Don't follow instructions, guidance, and this high need for control that I had. I
began to see what I had thought was a surrendered, fulfilling Christian life was really me holding it all together, not living surrendered. And it was amazing to me the longer I was a mother, the more layers I saw of how deep this control went, this
intense desire for stability, for peace, for rest, all at my own doing. And then the anger coming from things not working out, chaos ensuing, and primarily because I was trying to do it all on my own.
Nathan King (29:57.858)
Yeah, that's a car. I mean, I think any parent listening would say, I know that feeling. I certainly do. It's just I'm trying to keep things together. We don't have a lot of time and they're going off in some other direction and creating, you know, drama or or or making a mess or whatever it is. And it brings the anger. It's very wise what you said.
Laura (30:18.81)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan King (30:27.682)
It's like it's pointing to your own insufficiency that you thought you had already solved, but now you're plumbing new depths of it. And how valuable is that?
Laura (30:42.192)
very valuable, very exposing. And my tendency was to feel the anger, feel the shame and move on. And it was a pattern over and over and over again. And one day, one day my son, was maybe four. He looked at me while we were having breakfast and he goes, why don't you smile much mom?
his grandmother, Gigi, he said, she's always smiling. And I thought, I am living a testimony in front of my children and it is telling them something that I don't want communicated. And that rationally, I would say all day long, like I am filled with the joy of the Lord and I trust God and my anger was out of control and they were seeing it.
Nathan King (31:39.629)
Wow.
Mandi (31:40.31)
Bye.
surreal Laura. That's so real. I can relate. I can relate to that.
Laura (31:45.457)
So that was a big wake up moment, a big wake up moment for me to realize this pattern of feeling anger, having an outburst. And I think this would touch more in that unhealthy vein of rage, but not pausing enough to say, what's going on? What's really behind this feeling the shame and then running to the next thing. That moment with my oldest was a wake up call to this cycle has to break. And
There's more here.
Nathan King (32:17.314)
Yeah. And so what is breaking the cycle look like?
Laura (32:22.018)
So there's an element of, as we talked about, sharing in community and vulnerability and being honest about how out of control my anger was and in humility saying this is an issue. Like I find myself going to grab a child and that's out of control. Like that's concerning.
because I want to be able to communicate in a loving way. Like I said, to have a true testimony of the power of Christ in my life, and that's demonstrating something that I don't want to convey. so sharing with others and then getting in community, that was a season.
We had moved to a new town and so I was not plugged in to a community. I had not been involved with Wellspring. There was a gap of years. I was finishing my education, having children, and so I would say that was a big piece of it. And then honestly creating a habit of getting back in scripture and being fed by God's Spirit, letting those things in me be exposed no matter how much I didn't want to see them.
but allowing myself to experience him coming to me in love and addressing what needed to be addressed.
Nathan King (33:43.01)
Yeah. Yeah, what I don't hear you saying is I just need to turn off the anger. It was I need to surface the anger. And, and that's Yeah, that's a really powerful, very powerful example. Thank you for sharing that.
Mandi (33:45.91)
I'm still good.
Mandi (33:53.812)
Yes.
Mandi (34:00.0)
Yeah, that's really good. Nathan, you picking up on that. you, Laura, you were bringing it up to your community. You're bringing it in your time with the Lord. You are bringing it to the surface and in healthy ways. That's good.
Nathan King (34:15.438)
All right. So as we wrap up this conversation about this too hot to handle feeling of anger, what do you take from it? Where do you where do you want to go next in your lives with this with this topic? What comes up for you?
Mandi (34:44.886)
I mean, I'll be honest, Nathan.
I want to know if there are things that back to the beginning of the conversation, I want to know if there are places where my, um, potentially even subconscious response to push anger out and then I'm pushing out all the things behind it. Um, I want to know if there are places that I'm, I'm doing that and actually have one come to mind as we were talking. So it does make me want to explore, um,
you know, there may be well intentioned or I think it's good to push the anchor out, but I'm realizing, wow, is there loss there? So I definitely find myself curious about exploring that.
Nathan King (35:30.05)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. What about you, Laura?
Laura (35:34.183)
I am thinking of a situation that I have for weeks now pushed away, pushed away, pushed away and tried to enter back into that situation yesterday and was met with these feelings, primarily anger, frustration, and I wanted to force myself
to stay in the moment and it was so overwhelming. And so what I'm taking away from this conversation is to find a friend and have them sit with me in that situation and help me identify where is that frustration coming from? Where is that anger coming from? Because there's a clear blockage and
and I don't want to keep ignoring it.
Nathan King (36:38.488)
That's awesome, Laura. It sounds really bold, especially you said at the beginning of the conversation, don't like to, you perceive anger as dangerous. You don't want to touch it. Now you're saying you want to go bring it and get some help from a friend to be with it and understand what's going on. That's amazing. I love it.
As we've talked, something that really has stood out to me and what I'd like to do from this conversation is recognizing that anger in general is perceived as a no-no. Like in the culture that I live in, it's perceived as something that's not acceptable. And what I want to do is listen for it. When people are expressing a situation in their lives, knowing that they'll probably be guarded and not say that they're feeling anger.
but that I'll see it on their face, a furrowed brow or a frown or a clenched jaw or something like that. And I can ask them if they're feeling a little bit of anger or frustration and help them understand where it's pointing.
Laura (37:50.214)
That sounds like such a gift, Nathan. And as you're talking, I feel myself feeling such a sense of relief just in this time of us sharing. And I feel hope that what I have been bumping against, this anger, this frustration, it can be helpful. And the way God made me with that speedway, passion, energy inside of me.
It can be.
equipped, facilitated. It can be shaped to be something beautiful and necessary and helpful and that feels really exciting to me and I just I feel such a sense of relief.
Nathan King (38:39.598)
That's awesome. Well, thank you, Laura, Mandy. It's been great to be with you and to talk about this topic that we don't often bring up. So appreciate the chance to process it a little bit with both of you.
Mandi (38:41.866)
Yeah.
Laura (38:54.384)
Thank you.
Mandi (38:55.668)
Yeah, thanks Nathan. was different, but very fun.
Nathan King (39:00.312)
OK, all right. Well, good seeing you all. See you next time.
Laura (39:01.222)
You
Mandi (39:04.246)
All right, bye.
Laura (39:04.325)
Bye.
