[00:00:00] Nathan: Welcome to The Wholehearted Way podcast. I’m Nathan King, and today I’m joined by Laura Arnold and Mandi Wellington. Both of them are long-time Wellspring Group staff members. Today, we discuss some ideas, feelings, and desires that came up in our conversation last week with Abby Mendella, the executive director of the Wellspring Group. Mandi shares some things that have stayed with her, and Laura and I respond to Mandi. We end up talking about community, the way conversations work for individuals and within groups, and we share various things about our lives that we think are really helpful to hear from the aspect of living in a wholehearted community. Hope you enjoy this conversation. Mandi and Laura, welcome to The Wholehearted Way podcast. It's good to have you here today.
[00:00:54] Mandi: Thank you, Nathan. I'm actually really excited to be here today.
[00:00:58] Laura: Yes, thank you for having us. Excited to join y'all.
[00:01:00] Mandi: In the conversation we had with Abby in our last podcast, what we encountered was a space where she found motivation to risk because of the impact it had on other people. But she in her own self was really kind of settled in who she was and she didn't feel any internal tension that provoked any kind of movement; it was really how she realized her inaction or isolation had negatively been impacting people. I realized in the moment that what was really impactful for me was this lack of wholeness within myself—that was what was motivating for me. So, in the podcast, I'm identifying like, "Hey, we're coming at this from two very different motivations," and that was really interesting to me. Anyway, this week I’ve really realized I’ve become that person that feels really settled in themselves and isn't going to hard places. I'm becoming the thing that Abby was saying.
[00:02:11] Nathan: So Mandi, real quick, to paint a picture of what you were recognizing—you saw in yourself an unwillingness or an inability to move beyond where you currently are?
[00:02:22] Mandi: Yes, and what I was able to identify was the fear of the pain. Like, the places that I really think the Lord is inviting me into are painful, and I just felt it was easier not to go there and life just kept moving. I kind of knew they were there, but I realized that I've been avoiding the pain of going there. That conversation with Abby really challenged me on what the cost is of not going there.
[00:02:49] Nathan: So Abby's just sharing her experience, and as you're listening to Abby, you're assessing yourself through the lens of her experience.
[00:02:59] Mandi: Yes. On the day that we had that conversation with her, it was more of just an awareness like, "Oh, this is curious to me," and I did feel somewhat challenged by what I called selfishness on my part. But as I hit the days following, I started realizing that that applied more to my life than I would actually want to admit.
[00:03:31] Nathan: So it illuminated a blind spot. Well, what's it been like to walk around in the light all week?
[00:03:39] Mandi: I can't say I feel great about it. It’s illuminating that I am avoiding things I need to face. It’s illuminating that the reason I’m avoiding them is because I don’t want to feel what’s behind "Door Number 2". I did sit in front of "Door Number 2" last night, and I do feel more motivated to go there.
[00:04:14] Laura: Mandi, this is so profound to hear you open up your heart in this way. I’m sitting here thinking I feel like you’re describing where I’ve been. I want to acknowledge the courage for you sharing, and I feel invited to sit with what I’ve been unwilling to name, to address. For me, it's been this discomfort, and I'll just scoot away from that because I don't have time for that. So thank you for allowing us to see into where God has you and to be invited in our own way to what God is pursuing in our hearts.
[00:04:59] Mandi: Thank you, friend. Thank you for being a safe place. I feel like this is a group of people where I know that it’s okay for me to say such things, like "I’m afraid". I know that you’re going to be people that cheer me on in the process.
[00:05:21] Nathan: I want to make a more externalized comment about this situation. Something that strikes me is that in small group settings, when someone intentionally shares from a place of safety where they're willing to take risks about what they say about themselves, the person who's listening is filtering this through themselves. Mandi, you gave that example—Abby sharing something about a challenge she had in her life, and you're listening to it and you're thinking, "Wait a minute, what about me?" You can say nothing, and yet it has this massive impact. It's easy to discount the value of a small group, but there's just such rich value in a person's individual development simply by hearing someone else share what's difficult for them. It's so important that we all participate in that kind of authentic, open sharing with each other without trying to "solve" it, right?
[00:06:40] Mandi: Right. I think we underestimate the value of simply sharing from your life—the good, the bad, and the ugly. Through Abby's vulnerability, I gained something. It requires us to be a courageous people to do that.
[00:07:05] Nathan: Does Abby have any idea of what's been stirred up for you?
[00:07:08] Mandi: No.
[00:07:11] Nathan: So for Abby, or for anyone, a takeaway from your situation is you're just sitting here with your mind blown going through life and she has no idea. That means you have the opportunity, and I have the opportunity, to just go share stuff with people in our lives and have that kind of impact, and they may never tell us. Someone may not have the courage to tell you what it stirred up for them, but yet you can have that mind-blowing impact if you take the point of view that, "Hey, I'm going to share from a place of vulnerability".
[00:07:44] Laura: I would go even further than that. I think a lot of times the enemy wants me to think everything I shared was so dumb, like it couldn't possibly have impact. Whether it's the person that's sharing or the person that's responding, I think there's a temptation to just undermine or minimize the impact of sharing.
[00:08:08] Nathan: Yeah, that’s a great point. I’ve facilitated groups at Wellspring retreats, and I’ve seen more than once where a guy will share something heavy—maybe it’s abuse or a real suffering situation—and the other guys just look at their feet. The guy who just shared is thinking, "This was stupid, now everyone sees that I'm just an insufferable weakling". But those guys are thinking, "This was so powerful," or they want to care for him but don't know the right words. So you’re sitting in this situation of silence where the guy who shared thinks he’s totally alone and he’s an idiot, and the people who heard are just kind of blown away by it. When there’s a facilitator like me, I know what to do. I say, "Jimmy, how did you experience what he just said?" And then Jimmy starts to express these amazing reactions, and the other guy starts to feel emboldened and encouraged. It’s a beautiful moment, but in our society, we don’t get a lot of equipping for that.
[00:09:27] Mandi: I love that you said it so simply, Nathan. It can be as easy as asking a question or sharing a sentence how you experienced the person. To be able to give the gift of feedback when someone shares vulnerably, it’s almost like an extension of God’s heart. I know growing up in the South, in a church all my life, I very much shied away from all negative feelings. So to have friends and people in my life that have let me know, "Hey, I experience that as hard for you," or "My heart’s broken," it’s like unlocking part of my heart I didn’t know was there that was shut down.
[00:10:20] Mandi (cont.): One thing that I think surprised me the more I was around this kind of thing, going to the battle process and so on, I was really surprised to find out how many people really wanted to respond well in that moment. How many people really want to love their friend well in that moment, and they just don't know how. I do think that's one of the beauties of what Wellspring provides is just simple tools for how to respond in that moment.
[00:10:55] Laura: Mandi, I’m wondering if it’s all right to go back to the beginning. I’ve had in my mind this phrase that you’ve shared—that there was some internal force motivating you to handle working through challenges, things from your past, and now you’re at this point where there is not necessarily that internal motivation. I would love for our listeners to hear a peek behind the curtain of what it looks like to address that internal motivation. What do you do?
[00:11:42] Mandi: Well, I did have to come to the end of myself. What I mean by that is I tried really hard to have the answers for the internal chaos that I felt. I tried real hard, y'all, and it was a colossal mess, to be honest. I hope and pray that people don't have to come to that kind of space, but I did have to come to a pretty broken—I don't really like that word, but I guess that probably is accurate. When I came to battle the first time, I had also just started counseling, and those two steps were really big steps for me. It was the first time I said, "Okay, something's got to give; Mandi is not going to be the one that has all the answers". It is harming the people that live around me—my kids and my husband. So, coming to that acknowledgment that I couldn't do it on my own. I remember Laura, it was your mother-in-law sharing that weekend, and she talked about sustained joy. I didn’t know there was sustained anything, much less sustained joy. And it made me hungry for that kind of stability in my internal world. That was highly motivating for me. Being honest with myself, honest with the Lord, and honest with people around me was a really big part of my healing and my journey.
[00:13:46] Laura: One of the things that I’ve witnessed in your pursuit of living wholeheartedly is your relentless posturing before God of "Search me, know me. Show any hidden way in me," and standing before Him with open hands. I’ve witnessed being very open and honest with God in your walk and being quick to confess and repent when there are things that His Spirit brings to mind. I see that moving you forward deeper into His heart, deeper into understanding your heart, and being able to connect with others.
[00:14:26] Mandi: Wow, Laura, thank you for that. When you said that, I immediately knew it’s the fruit. I tasted parts of Him I didn’t know existed. Every time I’ve pushed in, the fruit has been over and above worth it. I’ve never pushed into a heart space and been disappointed. I’m just so proud of Him. He's so good at His job, y'all. I don't ever have to doubt that He's not going to be good at His job.
[00:15:21] Nathan: Can we take that statement and what you're feeling and put it on top of where you came in saying, "Wow, Abby's motivated, my internal forces are gone, how do I get motivated?" I’m wondering, is there a connection here?
[00:15:37] Mandi: I’m feeling the connection to the sweetness of what He’s always delivered on, and yes, that is connecting me to a motivator for pressing in and opening "Door Number 2". You said a pretty big statement that He’s never disappointed you. I never knew He was so gentle and so kind. I didn't know that 10 years ago.
[00:16:03] Nathan: What did you think 10 years ago?
[00:16:06] Mandi: That I better get it right, or He’s going to be disappointed, and I better get it right fast. It's the performance for approval. I never knew He would be so patient and so kind. When I’m met with that kind of kindness—the verse that His kindness leads us to repentance—I was like, "Well, darn if that ain't true!"
[00:16:38] Nathan: It’s valuable for me to hear, and I relate to so much of what you're sharing of transitioning from that dutiful, bleak view to open, warm, kind of this mind-blowing, unexpected reality. Yet, I often hear the call back to "I need to earn," "I need to perform". Maybe I could just take that one-minute clip of you describing it and just have an automatic replay of it once a day to remind me. But I’d like to understand something else. You said in the wake of listening to Abby share her experience, you found yourself finding the need to confront something which you symbolically labeled as "Door Number 2". So what are you going to do about "Door Number 2"?
[00:17:34] Mandi: I know I will open "Door Number 2". Whatever is on the other side of that door, even if it’s initially painful, there will be a fruit that I’m very thankful to take hold of or to receive from Him. I believe that it will be sweet because I’ve tasted it before. I do desire to come through for the people I love—to be the best mom possible, the best wife, and to not let my fear hold me back. I think it's going to have to start with a prayer of courage. I think that’s just going to have to be confessing to the Lord that I’ve been operating out of fear.
[00:18:23] Nathan: I think that's step two or three. I think you already named the first step: you named that you have to remember God's goodness. Out of the remembrance of what God has done, that’s all over the Psalms, it's all over the whole Bible—Habakkuk is famous for just recalling all the things that God has done for his people in a time of suffering. You just channeled that 100%.
[00:18:59] Mandi: I appreciate you bringing that up. I even think about the intention toward remembrance—I know I said it, I guess I blew right past it.
[00:19:15] Nathan: But you were embodying it. You were living it.
[00:19:22] Nathan (cont.): As you were talking earlier, I made the claim that when someone shares, the other people might potentially benefit more than the person who's sharing. As you were sharing about remembering God's goodness for "Door Number 2," I put in my head, "I have a Door Number 2". I bet Laura's got a "Door Number 2". I thought about mine and thought, "Ugh, I don't want to think about Door Number 2". Then I heard you reciting God's goodness, and I imagined opening my "Door Number 2" and I felt this release while you were sharing about yourself. I felt like, "Okay, I think I'm ready to open the door".
[00:20:07] Mandi: Wow, Nathan. First of all, I don't feel as alone. And I just feel really energized and even motivated thinking about you being willing to open "Door Number 2". Like, okay, let’s do this thing!
[00:20:34] Laura: And I’d like to name something here, too, that’s happening as we’re together in this communal space. This community, in the space, is a gift from God and it’s giving life by our conversation, our remembrance of His goodness. My conviction is to keep living in community.
[00:21:05] Mandi: Well said. I love your energy, friend. When something that matches the heart of the Lord is on the table, you get really amped up. I think you are tasting and articulating the beauty of His people when we're being the people He created us to be. And I know I have to tell my community group about "Door Number 2". I have a group of ladies that I meet with, my Thursday morning group, and we do life together and we confess together. They will be made aware of "Door Number 2".
[00:22:00] Nathan: What have we not covered, Mandi, that came up for you from the Abby conversation?
[00:22:04] Mandi: Really nothing. I feel really satisfied, even spurred on in this conversation. It helped me process through—like, whoa, I am just afraid to go there, which is not typical for me. This helped me process through and I feel even more equipped than when I got on the call to walk this out. So, just appreciate you both.
[00:22:38] Nathan: Well, thanks for sharing what happened. It was helpful to talk through some of these issues and hold them up and examine them.
[00:22:47] Laura: So grateful for you Mandi. Your heart’s beautiful. I’m inspired by your walk with God and with your community.
[00:23:01] Mandi: Nathan, thanks for being willing to have the chat. This was really fun.
[00:23:07] Nathan: It was good. Until next time?
[00:23:09] Mandi: All right, sounds good.
